Life in Christ

Christians

2011-04-06T15:56:00.000-07:00

I have decided to have a bit of a rant on this blog as I am bit of over goody goody Christians even though I am one.

I have been doing a bit of thinking lately about many issues that our society and how Christians are reacting to it. I have notice that Christians are getting very good at wanting to stand up for what they believe and what they think is right. DOnt get me wrong I think as Christians we are call to adovacate for those who cant speak for themselves. But the problem is that Christians are trying to ban many things but are not offering soloutions. Christians against gay mariages, abortions, eunthasia. But are not offering alternatives.
The fact remains that abortion has always been around whether legal or not. But its funny how one of the reasons Christians are banning it cause women are being selfish by putting their careers ahead or because apparently a baby doesnt fit into their lifestyle when in fact it is more than just that. Often the families are pushing it esp if the woman is single or the pressure is coming from their boyfriends. Dont get me wrong I am prolife but prolife for all human life. Women will still get abortions whether its legal or not. I dont want to see a womans life destroyed or dead from a blotch abortion! I rather we look into how to decrease the abortion rate through counselling and offering women support esp for women who will lose all family support.
Gay marriages is another issue. The myth with that people who are same sex orientated sleep around and cant commit but in actual fact a lot of heterosexual people are the same. Then what you do with people who for whatever reason have decided to change their gender and their partners have decided to stay with them. Even though these couples could of have been married for years, once that person changes their gender, they are no longer married. Not divorce, just not married. What are we going to do with those sort of people. There was a case overseas where a guy for no medical reason, body just naturally started to develop in a woman at the age of 50. Yet his wife was standing by him. What about that runner who they have now found that she is a boy on the inside but on the outisde is a girl. She has been brought up as a girl so what if she then dates and marries a guy.. does that make them a gay couple? I realise that these are rare cases but the point is as Christians we need to stop adovcating to ban these things without offering solutions esp when we dont have all the facts and while we are looking at these issues as black and white when they are not! We need to put aside all our biases and start finding ways to help these people.
There was a couple recently who made a sucide pact cause the wife was dying and the husband didnt want to live without her. If someone just had seen the signs or there was another option one life might have been saved. ( im not advocating for euthanasia, but showing the otherside of it) What if by banning euthanasia, people think the 'dont not resucate' (whoever u spell it) is counted as euthanasia and want to stop that. People forget it could also go to that exterme too!

THe fact is when we critise and bring down these people esp from the pulpit we are sticking another nail in their coffin and all it takes is another stupid remark for them to be pushed to the point of sucide and I dont know about anyone else.
I rather not get to heaven for God to say "u know all those issues u were adovacating against and wasnt offering solutions, well this amount of people killed themselves before even turning to me!"
I rather look for solutions than ban things like gay marriages etc. I rather try to find the balance which is in the end is God than to go to one extereme to another. I rather seek God's wisdom before reacting to what I think is wrong. WHy? Because each and every person was created in God's image whether they realise it or not and that is what important and something we need to keep in mind!

reflection

2010-12-02T03:13:00.000-08:00

I have spent some time reflecting over the past few years after a friend said to me along the lines that I have different giftings but they felt that I wasnt ready to lead a group as that is not one of my giftings. I have been thinking about that as the past few months I have been feeling the want to be able to lead for some reason and have just suddenly wanting to step up to that leadership role and that is when I do believe the Holy spirit has been reminding me that for the past four years or so I have taken a step back and letting others lead and just been happy serving and not having that leadership role. This really got me thinking as I have had leadership roles when working and spent most of my working life in some sort of leadership role. It was then I also realised that in many ways some of my past relationships that I have been in, I have been the stronger Christian and have kinda taken on the leader role in that way and not by choice just because of other stuff etc.

So after thinking about all this and reflecting on all this, it was then that I have realised that the past four or so have been a period of my life where I needed to sit back and just allow God to lead me. God has brought people in my life during that time that has helped me to grow not only within myself but also spiritually and that is what I have needed. In those four years I have been working on myself and working on issues that I have needed to work on. I can honestly say that the past even two months I have been working on having a more balanced life and it has been working. I know that this is something that I will always have to work on as my personality is very much all or nothing. But for the first time I did start to have a more better balanced life and even stuck to a timetable and all. The funny thing is that my marks improved and I felt more clearer in the head. No matter how busy I have been over the past few months, I have made time to exercise and to do a bit of gardening as well of course praying and reading my Bible. Much to my sister disgust I am also carrying my bible whenever I go these days as I find it comes in handy in waiting rooms to just pull it out and give it a read which is something I would have never done before.

Reflecting back on the past four years, I really have needed to sit back a bit and to learn in order to do what ever God has planned for me in the future and who knows this next new period of my life could be one where it is still time for me to grow in my walk with God as that will never end but maybe it is time for me to also step up to the mark and be the person that God has called me to be but also to really impart in other people's lives to help them to grow in their walk with God etc.

I look back now and just see what God has done in me and see the changes in me and I am so thankful for that period of learning and the people he has put in my life that really has helped me to learn and really start becoming and preparing for what God has called me to do and be in this next period of my life!

women in ministry

2010-11-26T21:24:00.000-08:00

I have just finished a paper on "is there a bibilcal foundation for women in senior leadership?" and after doing some research I found some very interesting things on the topic of women in ministry.

For one thing I never knew that there was even a a woman apostle whose name was Junia. Scholars over the years changed her to Junias as they feel that a woman can’t be counted as an apostle. Yet this wasn’t disputed until the 13^th century as commentaries before the 13^th century all say that Junia was a woman and when scholars have looked up the name Junias, there are no records showing that Junias was a even a male name in any Greek or Latin literature.
Paul also describes both her and Andronicus who was either her husband or brother as ‘fellow prisoners’ who became Christians before Paul did.

I also noticed that when you look up Romans 16:7 most Bibles have used the spelling Junias expect for the TNIV which as removed the 's' and has taken it back to Junia.

If women are not suppose to teach or have authority over a man why would Paul name a woman as an apostle???

Another interesting woman in the Bible who havent thought much about was Phoebe. Phoebe was a deacon and was not only commended by Paul but was sent to Rome by Paul to carry out some plans which may relate to evangelising and church planting. Also Phoebe is the only woman in Romans 16 where the Greek word prostatis is used. This word is the feminine form of the noun that means ‘leader,’ the one who presides or the one who stands before. The word Prostatis comes from proistemi which means “to rule and care for.” When you look at Jesus definition of a leader as seen in the gospels you an see that a Christian leaders both cares for and leads which fits into what we know about Phoebe as not only was she was a “ruling elder” but she was also described as a deaconess.

Again why would Paul call Phoebe a deconess or a leader if women werent suppose to be in that role? After all Paul is the one who said that "Women must remain silent in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and also told women that he does not permit a woman to have authority over a man in 1 Timothy 2:12. If Paul really meant this as a universal command why would he call Phoebe a deaconess and a leader?

Another interesting fact that I have read before but it was good to be reminded of think and to think about is the translation of the greek word 'head as in 1 Corinthians 11:13 and Ephesians 5:23 as both these passages talk about a man being the ‘head’ of the woman. The issue is that in the English sense the word ‘head’ tends to mean having authority over others. But one has to ask themselves if that what Paul mean when discussing these passages as these passages were written in the first century. In the New Testament Greek, the word head is kephale. Yet Kephale in the new testament Greek era could actually translate to ‘top’, ‘brim’, ‘apex,’ ‘origin ,’ ‘source,’ ‘mouth,’ ‘starting point,’ and the list could go on as altogether there is around 25 different possibilities for the meaning of kephale. But this depends on what lexicon people use as the most comprehensive one covers a period of 1600 years and includes the New Testament Greek. This lexicon does not list Kephale to mean ‘authority over,’ or ‘leader. Neither does a Greek thesaurus which was written in the sixteenth century. The problem is that there is a small lexicon by a man called Warren Bauer who only gives one meaning to the word kephale which is ‘head’ and then he proceeds to list 5 new testament passages and 2 old testament passages that has been translated in the early Greek where this word has also been used. The problem with this theory is that in the Hebrew language for head was ro’sh. This did mean leader or authority as it was used the same way as the English language and was quiet a common meaning at the time in ancient Hebrew. But the way that the English as well as the Hebrew language uses the word ‘head’ it was a common meaning in the New Testament Greek language. Even though Paul was fluent in both Hebrew and Greek, Paul wrote to churches that were Greek speaking and only knew the Greek language. Therefore one can assume that Paul would have used Greek terminology when writing to the people.

Then there is Prisicilla who along with her husband Aquilia guided Apollos in his faith and were counted as apostles as Paul refers to them in Romans 6:3 as “fellow workers in Christ Jesus.” They also had a church that was held in their house. Also it is important to note that Paul always uses Priscilla name first when addressing both her and Aquilia which could indicate that her gifting in teaching was stronger than her husband's. I have heard people say that Prisicilla had a quiet role in guiding Apollos and it wasnt in a church setting. But the fact remains that the pasage doesnt say this and Priscilla and Aquilia held church meetings at their home which was common at the time. So how can we say that she wasnt really teaching Apollos when Paul names her first and has mentioned the importance of her.

I could spend some time in writing about this as this blog has only just touched the basis of some of my findings. But even just the basic of research on this can really make one stop and think about the subject and have we as a church over the years havent given women enough creditbility concerning their ability to teach in the church and to be part of the leadership team?

Just food for thought!

Alvera Mickelsen, “There is Neither Male nor Female in Christ,” in, Women in ministry-four views, eds. Bonnidell Clouse and Robert Clouse Canada: Intervarsity press,1989.

J. Lee Grady, 10 lies the church tells women: How the Bible has been misued to keep women in spiritual bondage,49.

what is ministry?

2010-08-15T18:09:00.000-07:00

I was speaking to a beautiful Christian lady at mums church yesterday who does a card making workshop at the church. Something she said really started me thinking as she mentioned about it being a ministry and how is is glad that myself and another lady turn up to the card making workshop regularly. This really got me thinking as a never saw this as a ministry. Why? Well mainly because the card making interested in me and I was assured off this beautiful lady that she makes it really easy and that they don't have to be perfect. I never saw it as a ministry opportunity or by me being there who does go to this church regularly with mum as a opportunity of ministry. Yet most of the ladies who go there are in their 60's and dont go to church. ALso these great bunch of ladies go against the grain of what society feels how they suppose to act. These ladies are funny. They seem to enjoy acting like kids in a cheeky way and there is one who loves the attention and loves being known as the trouble making. I was always told off people that you should always act mature and act your age and yet here a a great bunch of ladies who are having a great time, acting like children! It is so funny to watch and I do wonder then if by myself and the two other beautiful christian ladies being there if on some level are we showing them God in a different way then what might be portrayed at church. The fact is that we all accept these ladies and join in with their cheekiness. But I do wonder if we are protraying the side of God that Christians don't normally portray which is the funny side of God. If we are all made in the image of God, then God must have a great sense of humour and enjoys to laugh. Why? Because God gaves us the ability to feel. To feel sad, to feel happy and even gave us the ability to laugh and have a sense of Humor. I just feel that by not judging these ladies and joining in with their cheekiness, we too then are bring God to them but in a different way and therefore still can be counted as part of our ministry. I think sometimes in western culture we get too caught up in thinking that the only ministry we as Christian is, is the minsitry that we do at church or the deliberate ministry of trying to serve others and sharing the gospel with others in order to 'save' them. Yet here is a great ministry where we are fellow shipping with others who are not yet Christians and just having a laugh with them. I do wonder if at some point if this type of ministry can speak louder than words!

church and people with 'disabilities'

2010-08-08T17:10:00.000-07:00

I feel that over the past year or so God has been taking me on Journey of thinking in depth about people with many different 'disablities' which in many ways has help myself to think about Lisa and her 'disorder' in a different way and come to terms to accept it. I found while coming to terms with Lisa 'disorder' it got me thinking about people with many 'disabilities'. It was also about this time that one of my lectures daughters came to college as she is the chaplain with the down syndrome association as her son also has down sydrome. The poor girl I was asked her the " do you think the reason children are born with many 'disabilities' is because of the result of the fall. Her answer was what really got me thinking as she said yes and no. Yes because we are in a broken world as a result of sin. But no as they are still made in the image of God and God still allowed it to happen. I was so confused over this answer as I couldnt understand how one could say that people with intellectual 'disabilities' or even people with a mental illness can be made in the image of God. After class one day I started to talk to my lecture about it and things just really started to click. We do live in a broken world and unfortunately because of the fall, we live out of God's perfect creation. But at the same time, God does allow to this to happen. He could stop it but he chooses not too. But that doesnt mean that these people are still not made in the image of GOd. I went away really thinking about that. Then it all clicked to me. Lisa is made in the image of God. God doesnt like the fact that Lisa does suffer from bi polar but he still created her and so loves her and loves her for her despite her bi polar. This is also the same case for people with many 'disablities' whether they have intellectual, physical, or mental 'disabilities' They are still made in the image of God and even though he allowed it to happen he still loves the for who they are. But there is also I feel things that we can learn from these people. Often they have a understanding of God that maybe we dont have and maybe we should have. But also there is a bit of them in us. How many of us want to have a tantrum cause we are not getting our own way or want to manipulate people to get them to do what we want them to do. How many times do we want to hide away from the world for a little while and just pretend it doesnt exist? I know there are times when I want to yell and scream at people as they are being very frustrating.
when you think like this, then I think your opinion and understanding for people with 'disabilities' change as you really start to see past their 'disabilities' and spend more time in trying to understand them and the challenges that they face. You also come to a understanding that these people are made in the image of God and we as a church need to love and accept them as God loves and accepts them. God sees past their 'disabilities' and sees them for whom that they really are...God's children.
A few weeks ago, Nathan showed a dvd at church done by cbm. Something someone said there really got me thinking about this subject more. THis lady was talking about a guy who comes to their church who is in a wheelchair. He also has problem with speech. ( I wonder if he has cerebral palsy or some sort of muscle problems) She said something really powerful as she said that she had trouble understanding him but once she got to know him she could understand him and started to see his whole personality. This is when she said an extremely powerful question. She said "was it her problem that she couldnt understand him or his problem? Her answer was that it was hers. THis really got me thinking and I started to realize that I sometimes had trouble understanding a couple of people who come to church who are in wheelchairs. I realized that it was my problem why I couldn't understand them as I didn't spend enough time with them nor did I make an effort to talk to someone who goes over to their home and runs a bible study with them. If I had spoken to that person and spent time with him talking about my concerns then I would understand them better and maybe understand some of things that they say that I know doesnt make sense. One lady kept saying to me she kept trying to ring me but i never answered her calls or ring her back. I knew for a fact she never rang me but i couldn't understand why she kept saying that. The I spoke to Joseph and started to realize that is just what she does and does it to him. I stopped talking to her because of that issue but if I had only spoken to Joseph in the first place then I could of sorted the problem out sooner knowing that is just what she does. So was that her problem or mine? In the end it was mine problem.
I can also relate this back to Lisa. Is it her problem that some people have trouble accepting her or is it hers? The answer to that is it is theirs not hers.
In the end people with 'disabilities; are beautiful people are are made in the image of God and can teach us things about the image of God and God's love that maybe we don't think about
As a church we need to understand their many different needs and be flexible when needed to make sure that their spiritual needs are still being met, even if this means allowing someone who has a intellectual disability and is in their early 20's continue to come youth as that is where they feel accepted and maybe still at in their stage of life.It is only by being flexible and understanding that we can fully accept people with 'disabilities' and love and accept them as God loves and accepts them!

an interesting experince on women in ministry

2010-05-02T16:51:00.000-07:00

I have an interesting experience of being a woman in ministry on the weekend. Due to fear and the thought that I lacked ability to be able to do certain things in ministry and just the plain facts that I dont like to leave my comfort zone and do something that maybe a weakness or even lack of experience I didnt offer what so ever to lead communion, to preach or even do the offering talk for the alpha teams. Yet on Friday night I come after work to find two emails off Jack. The first one was asking if I was going to riversedge church on sunday ( Jack knew that I sometimes go there with my mum ) as they needed a driver and Jack was wondering if I was able to drive some students there. So thats all cool.. No worries I can do that. But then I noticed a second email asking if I could lead communion as there was no one to do this. (he had asked both men and women who some said yes but then realised later for whatever reason in the end realised that they couldnt) But if I couldnt lead communion Jermery could prob do it. At this point of time fear was raising up inside of me wiht just the thought of doing it! So I said no as I was graduating and had an essay so prob wont get time. (perfect excuse I know) But I did say if he got desperate to give me a yell thinking that I was safe and I have got out of this so this wouldnt happen! Well God obviosuly had different plans for me and decided to give me a kick up the bum and force me out of my comfort zone! (God knows me way too well!!!!!) At 6:20pm Sat night Jack messaged me saying he was sorry but no one else could do it and can I please do it! SO I did agree making note to tell Jack that he did own me one! and still does! :) ) I was so worried about doing this and my intial thought was that I cant do this and Luke was one of my Lectures and Narelle could be there who does lecture me from time to time at college. But then a thought came into my head why dont I discuss the reason why we take communion as I do believe that often we can get into a habit in doing things at church and not give a thought about why we do it or even explain to new christians why we do things.
So all through dinner I continue to stress about this communion thing even though the thought of explaining it didnt leave me head. After dinner I went into my room and got my paper out and started to procrastenate over this talk. But eventually I got the pen to paper and began to write and was supprised at how easily the words started to flow. Mind you I was still stressing over it but the words kept flowing. In the end I had a draft written in half an hr which I showed mum and sugggested one change. By the time I did that and re wrote it out agian neatly (still thinkign that this talk is not right as it hasnt taken me too long to write ) the whole thing took about an hr or so to write. Now you need to understand that I like to plan these things and would rather have throught about this and start on it a week ago so for me to have it done in a hr stressed me out even more!
When I was talking it over with my mum and step father my stepfather also gave me a much needed kick up the backside and told me that I was a smart girl who can do this and so I shouldnt put myself down and that I should just stand up and do the talk and be confident in doing it.
So that is what I did the next morning.. I got up and held the mircophone (which I generally hate doing) and did it and guess what according to Ps luke flecture and Ps Katherine Flecture it worked! I did look at Luke at one stage to help indicate if I have left a long enough time for people to partake in their communion but apparently it went well. Admitally Luke gave right feedback that it was a tad short but then gave me a suggestion on what I can do next time if that happens which was really helpful.
But this just goes to show that we cant do anything in our own strength. THis has to be all God's doing and GOd defintely had his hand in the whole situation as if he hadnt I dont think the door would have been force open for me to do the communion talk or for it to even work well.

This then leads me to wonder if women shouldnt lead communion then why did God force the door open for me to do. Yes he had asked many people both men and women who said either they werent able to due to their own church commitements. But even though I was available I wasnt putting my hand up for it and quite the opposite as I was wanting to run the other way and did try , GOd still used a woman to lead communion who was doing her best to run away from it! But in the end why would God use a woman who was doing her best to not to be used to lead communion to lead communion if he didnt want women to do this. IT is something very interesting point to think about and has got me thinking more about this.
It also made me spend a lot of time in prayer that night applogising to God and praising him. First saying sorry that I didnt believe in him enough that he would give me the skills and ability and confidence to lead communion and then praising him for the lesson he taught me as well as for his guidence, help and his amazing power and Grace!

women in minstry part 3

2010-03-05T17:36:00.000-08:00

Last week I did a subject on developing women leaders. It was very interesting and opened my eyes on some facts that I didnt even know. The main one is that the fact that in Acts 18, the author places not once but twice Prisicilla's name first infront of her husand. The author also mentions that they both helped guided Apollos in his faith and that there was a church that met at their house. This really does put a new spin on things. In a era where men were the head of the households why would the author place Priscilla's name infront of her husband? Is the author trying to point out that Priscilla had the same if not more leadership concerning ministry than her husband or was it only by accident that the author did this? Also a few times throughout Acts, the author will mention a woman and will mention about being her house. If men were the head of the households why then is the author saying its the woman's house? Again one does have to wonder if this was just a mistake or if there is more to it.
Also when you read in the Old testament you see that Deborah was a woman leader. She was a judge which therefore means that at times she had the power to judge a male at any time and decide on the appropraite consquences for his actions. Also she instructed a male to head up an army.
Another interestng fact on this subject is Esther. What do people who are anti women in ministry do about her. Apparently when the cannon was being put together people didnt want the book of Esther in it. Yes she was a conversational woman but in many ways she did have power and influenced her husband greatly to the point where one of her hanman was killed and her people were saved.
It makes you wonder why this doesnt come into the picture when discussing about whether woman can be in all areas of ministry.
Have people also forgotten that Corinthians is a letter written in response to a 'missing' letter which therefore is adressng certain issues rasied by the church at the time. Knowing that this is a letter shouldnt that then change the way we read and interpert these passages?
According to J.Lee Grady in his book " 10 lies the church tell women" he mentions he points out verse 34 in 1 Corinthians 14. H mentions that it talks about how the Bible states that "women are not allow to speak just as the law says" When reading this verse I have wonder myself WHAT LAW? When discussing this passage, he states that there is 'no law in the Old testament saying that women cannot speak' which is so true when you read the Old testament. Grady feels that this passage is referring to a Jewish rabbinical tradition that the Corinthian church had adopted. Yet the funny thing is about that verse is that women are allowed to pray and to prophesy in the church. Isnt when a woman does that she is speaking in the church?
Also when in 1 tim it talks about women are not allowed to teach a man and is to remain silent in church, why is then a woman is allowed to teach children. Isnt that still teaching men to be?Isnt that still speaking?
Are people saying that great Christian women leaders like mother Therese and Catherine Booth were going against God's word? These women stood up and took the call of what God was calling them to do? Didnt these women at times instructed men and at times had to rebuke males? Are these people saying that they didnt make a difference in people's lives and didnt 'bring' Jesus to the people? These women made big differences to the lives that they touch. What would have happened if they didnt accept the calling that God had placed on their lives?
Also the fact remains that Jesus told and even instructed Mary Magdalene in Matt 28: 9-10 to tell people that he has risen. In fact this was the first public announcement of the resurrection, proclaimed to a women! (Roger J Green " Catherine Booth" pg 128)
Why isnt that all mentioned when this subject is brought up.
The more you read on this subject, the more you can see the arguements are stronger than for those who against women in ministry. By not looking throughout the Bible and putting things into the right context, arent we then sinning and doing the Bible injustice and more injustice to the people Jesus came to to save?

women in ministry cont

2010-01-27T16:04:00.000-08:00

I have been doing some more research on this and the more that I read the Bible the more I get to see that Jesus often used women in his illstration to teach men about him and to evanglise to them. ITs funny that you never hear that part of the picture when this subject comes up. Also when you look at Corthinians audible prayers and prophecies were spoken by women in the assembly in Corinth (1 Cor 11:4-6) which might have been instructive to the males around them.
Also women were taking an active and vocal role in the assembilies of the early church.
Phobebe had a role as a deacon in the church at Cenchreae*
Syntyche and Euodia's role as Paul's Fellow contenders for the gospel. *
But also ther are other principles in scripture that might be found to "override" the specific restride' the specific instructions in 1 tim. scripture like in Galations 3:28 etc*
So if that is the case why arent we hearing that side of things and not taking that consideration in the debate. Its funny as why is it that 1 tim comes up about women that is suddenly a black and white issue but women's modesty and hair length is not a black and white issue. Its just a bit werid. How can we as christians make one in hte BIble area black and white but not another area?Are we do then doing the Gospel any justice at all by doing that? If by focusing on these nitty critty issues and trying to get them so right have we forgetten why Jesus reall came on earth for?
I know that there is no real answer to these questions but they are interesting questions that I think we should really think about

women in ministry

2010-01-24T20:40:00.000-08:00

I am in the process of wondering about women in ministry and 1 Tim 2;12 and how that relates to us. At next gen they were saying that women shouldnt teach men or have authority over men. Then Dave went on to say that he is thinking that should include youth grp. This has got me thinking. When we hear a one opinion view on a topic often we can sit there and think yup that is so true and then get reactive on those feelings without stopping to think about the issue more or look up the fors and against on that particular topic which may even give us a better and bigger picture to think about the issue before making a decision.
I do have to wonder though if women in minisity is really a black and white issue as churches trying to make out it is and if people are reacting to the feminsit movement which really did go to far and so are trying to push it back again and then allowing thier feelings get into the way of the issue most prob on a more sub concious level. It seems to me that Christians spend so much time on agruing with this issue and even to the point where you have one state in a particular demonitation against the other states of the same demoniation about this acutal issue. One does have to wonder why scholars in the same demoination cant agree on this subject and whether we spend too much time in figuring this partiuclar issue out and forgetting the real issue of the Bible to spead the word and to quote from next gen 'to hand me down' the gospel to the next generation. Have we somehow forgotten that Jesus came to save the lost, the poor etc and that is what we should be aiming at and doing rather than arguing over this really in the scheme of things pointless issue whihc is most prob a grey area anyway